Author Topic: Is a war coming ?  (Read 9591 times)

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Offline Hardman

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Is a war coming ?
« on: April 18, 2015, 07:18:51 PM »
I really do hope not and this rather long but worthwhile read does ignore a lot of factors - still very sobering though compared to the ability this country had a couple of decades ago to look after itself, in a region which was then decidedly less hostile.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/the-next-war-can-australia-put-up-a-fight/story-fnpjxnlk-1227256216214

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Offline Rybags

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 01:29:06 AM »
Why would anyone need to "invade" Australia anyway?

They just immigrate here by whatever means with bugger-all red tape in the way.
The Chinese get natural gas, iron ore, minerals at rock bottom prices.
Illegal fishermen poach our waters and rarely get caught.

Having a war would just upset that status quo and ultimately be more costly.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 11:29:32 AM »
It's a good question Ry.

Defense analysts acknowledge that Australia is a very, very difficult country to invade and occupy whilst being one that would be relatively easy to defeat unless assisted by a super-power ie. the US.

In today's world there would be very little point as you say, but often wars don't start for good reasons.

The country has three things that would make it of interest to over-populated neighbours, land, food and mineral wealth. That the land is majorly inhospitable, the amount of it arable not large as a percentage and the minerals in some of the most difficult areas to work may or may not be off-putting to say a militant China.

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Offline Wallacey

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2015, 01:27:32 PM »
I doubt Australia could mount much of a defence, our army is tiny and the population disarmed.
Whatever

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 02:54:39 PM »
Well, not completely disarmed Wallacey but yeah, the old belief of being able to go bush and mount guerrilla-war on an invader is not so easy today.

The truth, and why I found the what-if in the link interesting, is that if an invader made it ashore in force there would be little option but to surrender. The defense of the country depends very much upon the Navy, that and holler for the US cavalry.

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Offline Rybags

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 04:09:12 PM »
The people they most wanted to disarm are the ones who are still armed.
Really, this country has more threats from within than from outside.
That said, there'd be a lot less of them if we'd kept them outside to begin with.

Offline LogicprObe

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 04:46:15 PM »

Look at the immigrants of the last 20 years.
Most would make crap soldiers even if they didn't turn around and help the invaders.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 05:24:13 PM »
Well....

Importing the fodder for an army is probably not a really good idea but that said  I think the people being brought up here who ran here to escape the people that may be lunatic enough to attack this country, actually check that, I think they did, yesterday, but foiled, in Melbourne,  would likely fight if forced to it.

People are strange, we do not have a lot of Kurd immigrants for example. Most Kurds have historically stayed and fought and they have been kicking ISIS ass, but they do need help.

Granted we have a very strange problem of supposed naturalised citizens going off to join ISIS, we are not alone in that, been happening from the UK, the US and other places but it's a very, very small number. I have absolutely no idea what mental process persuades these dipshits to do what they have been doing, other that in my opinion it would be immeasurably improved with a piece of high-speed lead between the eyes but they really are a blip.

Most people that come to live in this country are perfectly ok folk, a very small number that really would be extremely difficult to detect are bad apples.

Every country on earth has experienced that problem, but personally I do think Australia has in the main handled it better. It is however very much an ongoing experiment.

What I think is undoing the work of generations is the current immigration policy.

I do not have an answer but I think I can say that concentration camps on Nauru, Christmas Island and the mainland are not it....

Cheers



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Offline Rybags

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 06:31:46 PM »
Once a shitfight starts... anywhere... people soon enough show where their loyalties lie.
And more often than not, it's not with the new home.

Offline LogicprObe

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 06:49:23 PM »

Read the Koran, Chris.
Then you'll understand their thinking and the huge problem we face in the future.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 08:00:16 PM »
I think I've read just about every religious text, including the Koran, ridiculous shit but as you are well aware beloved by millions if not billions... However the Bible is no better, not really.

I don't give it the time of day but many do.

The problem Logic is to do with getting the thought processes changed, not with just accepting that they are entrenched - they are not,  ignorance only changes by access to information and the absorption of that information,  the latter acceptance process being very fraught.

Patience is a very strong requirement and gets exhausted often.

I dunno Ry you'd have to give me examples of that,  I'll start, the concentration camp survivors who went straight to the front lines, and many, many,  died, in the first war that established Israel as a state.

Complex world, not going to become less so by any prejudice.

Cheers






« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 08:02:36 PM by Hardman »
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Offline LogicprObe

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 08:15:43 PM »

You say 'beloved'.

The text says..........join, or die..........leave, you die.

Love me or I kill you?

Sounds like rape to me.

Offline Rybags

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 10:37:07 PM »
Adoption of a given religion and rejecting others isn't ignorance.  Regardless of what they know of the outsider's religions.
It's people's free choice to be religious or otherwise and it's also choice whether to bother to learn about ones other than your own or to outright disregard religion of any sort.

The problem we have in the free world is that the majority is expected to yield to the beleifs and wishes of the minorities.
Not to mention the double standard where equality among sexes, ages and races is expected, except of course if it happens to go against the teachings of a minorities religion.

Offline AccessDenied

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 03:10:28 PM »
Some areas I agree with your Ry, others I disagree.

I feel a woman should be able to wear her hijab, niqab or Burkha (We rarely see burkas or niqab's.  Burkha is full face including eyes.  Niqab is full face except eyes.  We normally see the hijab.  Just the hair and neck) if it is her religious belief but it must also comply with Australian Laws.  Remove when required.  For modesty, it can be done in female presence.

I feel a mosque should not have to suffer vandalism.  I feel any religion should be able to get on a train and not fear a racist tirade.

However, I should not have to deal with the bullshit of a chaplain in my sons PUBLIC (non-religious) school.  We should acknowledge the other religions, but we should not be dictated by it.  Laws should not be dictated by religious beliefs.  If an Ethics panel says "Now hang on" then perhaps we need to step back and look at the law again. 

We get the disenfranchised youth doing the ISIS bullshit because they have been told they are not welcome here.  They go to an extreme. But people who get told their country hates them, well, quite frankly, I'm not surprised they hate the country.

No religious text is free of hate.  And Atheism isn't much better.  Watch a Dawkins talking to Christians video at some stage.  He will insult the bejesus out of them, and then wonder why they don't take him seriously.  This is why I think Dawkins should stick to books and just shut the hell up when a microphone is present.

The only things we can really do at the moment is to pressure our local member whenever we feel the religious influence is getting to great, but more importantly, mark "No Religion" in the census.  We need to educate people that it doesn't matter if you were Christened, if you don't believe in God, then you mark No Religion.  (Seriously.  It's actually a real problem.  People tick "Christian" because their parents Christened them when they were a kid, despite this person not believing in God).

/deep breath.

Tolerate my beliefs, I'll tolerate yours.  Be friendly to me, I'll be friendly to you.  Remember that Tolerance, is not acceptance if it does not comply with society norms and laws.  That's all we need in Australia.

AD

Offline Smokey

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 04:30:16 PM »
I'd agree with that AD
However, That is the way WE think.  Not nessesarliy what "they" are working towards.

Re a war? I suppose China could just call in its debtors and simply walk in.
As for defence, I don't  know why they don't line the North with silos packing nuke war heads at the most.
Long rage conventional missiles in the least.

Even a lion can't fuck with a porcupine.
I think the average person would go along with it if the situation of  land area and conventional Australian defence cost was explained well.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 05:35:53 PM »
Hmm,

I'm very disinclined to ever see Australia adopt nuclear weapons, coming from the UK it has the nasty side-effect of making you a nuclear target. In fact I tend to have a problem with missile systems reliance in general.

Australia overall is not at any high risk at all except that it is a very wealthy spacious nation in the midst of the most densely populated area on earth where in many nations poverty is a major, major issue.

Cheers
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Offline AccessDenied

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 05:59:29 PM »
I'd agree with that AD
However, That is the way WE think.  Not nessesarliy what "they" are working towards.

Re a war? I suppose China could just call in its debtors and simply walk in.
As for defence, I don't  know why they don't line the North with silos packing nuke war heads at the most.
Long rage conventional missiles in the least.

Even a lion can't fuck with a porcupine.
I think the average person would go along with it if the situation of  land area and conventional Australian defence cost was explained well.

What *WE* think doesn't mean much.  Remember that Aussie kid that went off the rails?  He wasn't an immigrant.  He was just a loser who didn't get the help he needed.

What we need to do  (Prepare to enter fantasy!):
Be more accommodating of the Muslims (And read on because part 2 is the critical part)
Provide help to those in mental distress.  From veterans, to teenagers, to the bullied.  <- Here is where we are really failing.

We need to give the downtrodden a reason to love us.  "Sure my life is shit, but at least the country is trying to help"   And I don't mean money handouts.  I mean "Here are services available to you"

If you think Muslims can't integrate, then go to a fruit market sometime.  Don't know about rest of Australia.  Canberra = Muslim.  And man it is awesome.  The greeks left the fruit scene ages ago in Canberra.  Now tradies.  (Yes.  Stereotype. But highly accurate here).

AD

Offline Smokey

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 08:27:43 PM »
Agree AD,  Maybe Australia's unique situation will see Muslims integrate.
Time will tell. 
The WE and THEY thing was an impression I got on the over all conversation and for example only.

I'm an agnostic. I could give a shit about anyones faith until they prove it.
Or if anyone claims a faith to be false? I'll ask them to also prove it.

So far nobody is affecting my choice of life.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 08:38:27 PM »
:)

Any belief about some superior being that portrays that being as basically being contaminated by human emotion has all the hallmarks of being created by humans to influence other humans - not buying it.

I'd be backing the Australian ethos to integrate Muslims, but it sure is a rockier road than Europeans, or Asians come to that, no really easy answers.

I hear what you are saying AD, mate of mine who is Jordanian just pinged me for a catchup, be good to see him. I THINK he might be Muslim but I have many Muslim friends whom I'd trust to babysit my grandchildren, if I had any, it's always the fanatic minority, including Christians, actually even atheists some times :)

Cheers

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Offline LogicprObe

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 06:06:29 PM »

I know a few 'muslims' who have integrated.
They drink beer and eat bacon.................but never in front of their parents or extended family!

They know what the Koran says.........and they know what their family and community will do to them!

That's nothing as to what they think should be done to us infidels.

Offline AccessDenied

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 09:17:24 PM »
Pretty much.

Our current neighbours.  The mother wears a hijab.  The daughter was given the choice.  She chose *not* to wear it.  The end.  No dramas.  No less love.

That's all it comes down to.  Free to choose your religion and how you follow it.

AD

Offline LogicprObe

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2015, 05:26:53 PM »

AD..........you said you don't see many burkas down there..............well, there's plenty up here in Sydney.
It's one of the reasons I'm moving out.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2015, 05:39:31 PM »
Hmm,

Not been to Sydney for a few years now, but never noticed THAT much of an ME influx.

So, moving to where Logic?

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Offline LogicprObe

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2015, 07:56:29 PM »
Wollongong.

No enclaves down there.....................yet.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Is a war coming ?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2015, 08:11:32 AM »
:)

Well, nice place, best wishes for a non-traumatic move :)

Cheers
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