Author Topic: Wars and the men who fight them...  (Read 13043 times)

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Offline McClean

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Wars and the men who fight them...
« on: September 11, 2009, 03:34:03 AM »
:)

We had some of these videos in various threads on the old Knuck. I thought I'd try to get them all in one thread here.

Being this is Knuck, I don't expect this to be an issue here, but I do want to say that any dickhead posts in this thread WILL be deleted and I'm sure I'm not the only mod here who feels that way.

Also, others are welcome to post similar videos in this thread.






I Was Only 19 by Redgum.





« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 01:29:39 AM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 03:42:33 AM »
Vietnam That's How It Is Lyrics by Dave Cook.




« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 01:31:27 AM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 03:46:03 AM »
If You're Reading This by Tim McGraw.



« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 11:52:10 PM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 03:55:48 AM »
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 01:32:31 AM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 04:02:56 AM »
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 01:35:00 AM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 04:10:18 AM »
Still In Saigon by The Charlie Daniels Band.



« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 01:35:42 AM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2009, 06:54:41 PM »
:)

You know my thoughts on this - will copy them over if anyone is interested :)

Cheers
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Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 02:01:46 PM »
Eh, I'll paste this in anyway - Jamie and I had this discussion long ago and this is what I said:

Wars.

I've been to far too many in my life, I think the count was seven if you include insanities like Ireland.

At a remove of thirty years I can see two where I made a difference:

Biafra where I was working for Red Cross in the post-war clean-up, which still involved a deal of gunfire, and Israel during the War of Attrition, probably was part of delaying the '73 October war, by which time I was no longer there and wished I had been... Lost a lot of friends in that war and its aftermath.

The Cold War, which often became more than warm, I was a part of, I don't know if I was even noticed, and don't really care.

I was a brief observer in Vietnam, but still managed to get in the thick of it a couple of times, trouble has a way of finding me, useless war from beginning to end....

British Honduras, Ireland, and one I can't talk about, yeah, seven, plus a few other skirmishes.

The thing that gets me about these clips Jamie has posted is this:

Unwilling warriors......

I chose to be a warrior, in my youth I was I suppose very well equipped in mind and body, still not too bad in either but damned cynical in the first. But, it was my choice, I didn't like some things going on in the world and I decided to get engaged with seeing if I could make a difference, as I said, some places I did some I did not.

My choice, but not the choice of conscripts, or probably National Guard in Iraq within 72 hours of arriving.

Conscription is ridiculous really, you can't make warriors out of office workers and farmers too often, warriors have to CHOOSE to be warriors, and accept that it is not exactly a glamorous profession, Hollywood to the contrary.

I am VERY tired of politicians failing in their jobs and using warriors as "politics by another means" as that fool McNamara was prone to say, no wonder Ford make such shitty cars overall if he was part of the process.....

The day the politicians lead the charge I'll take note, as once used to happen in deep history, nowadays it's chess, with pieces that bleed and die.....

One war in the late 20th century crystalised my thinking - the Falklands.

Idiotic war in many ways, but, the fading empire projected force on a scale unheard of since WWII, and won, using solely trained professionals.

I lost two friends in that war, but, they chose to be there, which is the point, warriors will go where wars are, and there's plenty of choice, but warriors also exist to defend in the main, which was always my goal, yet, best form of defence is often attack, to quote a homily

If more people saw the true horror of modern war I rather believe war would come to an abrupt halt, leaving the few psychopaths, we can deal with those....

It's a strange balance. Sometimes Hollywood glorifies war, sometimes it does not, the nightly news rarely has the real footage, or deems it too graphic for the kiddies or something...

I do not agree with the latter one iota, not after seeing how African kids deal with war on a daily basis, the more we spread the horror the more there will be abhorence.

I'm just musing, but thanks for putting those clips here Jamie, where intelligent people CAN muse

Cheers

For some reason that input killed the thread, perhaps on Knuck it might not :)
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Offline once repent

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 03:07:33 PM »
Travelling soldier

DIXIE CHICKS


« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 04:46:38 PM by McClean »

Offline once repent

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 03:10:59 PM »

poster girl
Bec Cole
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 04:54:42 PM by McClean »

Offline once repent

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 03:16:00 PM »
Welcome home
from Ford



« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 05:08:04 PM by McClean »

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2009, 12:09:00 AM »
 :)

Geez....

Took my eldest to see Dixie Chicks a while back... They did "Traveling Soldier," Kid looks at me and said "Sounds like you dad...."

Sometimes you can tell your kids a little too much....

Still love that song though, all of these really, interesting thread, I'd really like to know what in hell it is that leads to the need for these emotions though - I never WANTED to go to war, just didn't see there was much choice....

Cheers

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Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2009, 09:35:18 AM »
I thought about posting "Traveling Soldier" to start with, but I decided not to.

In my little corner of the world, pretty much any mention of the Dixie Chicks is sure to result in a political shit storm, which I wanted to avoid in this thread.

Great song though...

I'll probably have a bit more to say when I have more time and I'm also toying with the idea of splitting off the discussion part into another thread.

It's pretty easy to push the buttons, just not sure whether I should or not.  ::w
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2009, 10:44:33 AM »
 :)

Nice idea Jamie - ANY discussion on the futility of war is worthwhile - always...

Bear in mind, in the main this is an Oz site, Dixie Chicks didn't get much in the way of crap down here - they were a bit bitter about the whole controversy though, mentioned it in the prelude to singing "Travelling Soldier."

From my perspective even though I am not the fan of their music that my daughter is their backbone in that little shit storm was half the reason I shelled out to go see them.

Of course it didn't hurt that they are pretty women and able to carry a tune without instruments if need be, which they did a couple of times that night :)

Cheers

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Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2009, 08:59:20 AM »
Well, I think I’m definitely going to have to find that split button, but that said…

It probably won’t surprise you when I say that I don’t much agree with their politics, especially Natalie Maines, who’s the really mouthy one of the group. 

However, I couldn’t help wondering what ever happened to the idea of freedom of speech, especially freedom of political speech or the idea that while I may not agree with what you say, I would defend to the death your right to say it.

What’s happening in the US today and in recent years boils down to, if you are in the public eye and you are right of center, then you can say pretty much anything you want, regardless of how moronic it is. But if you happen to be left of center and dare to express an opinion, then you get the “shut up and sing or else” crap.

As for the Dixie Chicks, even though I may not agree with some of their previous comments, I do love the defiance of this song.



« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:27:21 PM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2009, 11:00:09 PM »
:)

Politics is about disagreement - Personally I prefer the aboriginal approach of concordance - keep arguing until you agree :)

Cheers
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Offline fuknK1W1

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 12:33:48 PM »
Sometimes you can tell your kids a little too much....

Sometimes the kids don't get told enough and they take their stories to the grave told only to those who were there. The nature of the beast I guess.
This may be going off on a tangent as most of the posts relate to songs about war, any way I'd like to share some photos with you.

This is a photo of my old man (step father) & his crew from NZ 18th Armoured Regiment in Italy in 1943 at a place called Sangro.



Here are some excerpts from the family history; Douglas (The Boss) was my  step grandfather;
“Douglas arrived in the outpost from where he had been lying on his overcoat in the sun, and reported that the guns of a destroyer seemed to be pointed at their direction instead of at the Turks. The first shell from the destroyer was a direct hit on his overcoat, and several more were fired before the mistake was realized.”

This one relates to the assault on Chunuk Bair, during which New Zealand troops were again accidentally fired on by the British Navy:

“The fighting was very heavy and casualties were heavy too. After four months the Canterbury Mounted Rifles, 32 officers and 645 men who had served on Gallipoli only one officer and 32 men were left, having not been killed, wounded, gone missing or evacuated sick. In August Douglas got yellow fever and jaundice and dysentery and was evacuated about the same time as Uncle Bill was wounded.”

After the armistice The Boss returned to Gallipoli on garrison duty. He found it very interesting looking from the Turkish point of view at the places the New Zealanders had tried to capture.

“After a month (at Gallipoli) they went back to Egypt and were due to come back to New Zealand when the Egyptian riots broke out. They were sent to pacify the natives, which was a fairly tough job, all those rioting Egyptians, a lot of whom they flogged. Then just as they were due to leave for New Zealand they had to destroy all their horses, which was the saddest thing they had to do.  (Douglas) finally got back to New Zealand about a year after the war ended”

Another brother Alistair went away but died at Paschendale these are his son’s words, he had two sons one of whom he never saw. They are both still alive:

“(Alistair) was killed by a shell which landed right in front of him. Dad was 26 when he died. Austen was two and I was about three months old. Mother just carried on. We were told that our father had been killed. We just sort of accepted that and life went on.”


My Great Uncle Bill wrote these words about his experience in Gallipoli:
"I got up and tried to walk, but found I couldn't. I had four bullet holes through the ankle and my boot had been shot right off. So I lay down and told my Seargents, Bert (Fleming) and   
Arthur (Greenwood), to get on with it. Soon afterwards they both got shot as well. We had gone out in our shirt sleeves and that night was bitterly cold. Dr Neil Guthrie, our medical officer, tried to cover me up with branches that had been shot off by shells. Then I called out for stretcher bearers and they picked me up and took me down to the beach next morning. We were dumped on the hot sand in the blazing sun, no shelterat all. At nightfall we were put on a cattle barge and were bumped about and splashed by the sea. Some of the chaps were yelling a bit. Three different ships were too crowded to take us aboard, but at last a petty officer got us on the first boat, very over crowded. Two elderly nurses gabbed me and put my leg into some scolding water and it turned the flesh all grey and bloody cooked it and saved my life,probably. There was only one doctor on that ship and these two nurses."
 
Uncle Bill went on to live to be 100 years old, my cousin still has his wooden leg. He used to say even late in life that he could scratch his wooden leg to get relief from the "phantom itch" in his foot.......................

WE WILL REMEMBER THEM
LEST WE FORGET

Today I found these photos while searching the net.
In this photo Uncle Bill is 4th from the left in the back row, & Alistair was my cousin Bill' paternal grandfather. The bloke at the end of the seated (2nd) row on the right is cousin Bill's maternal grandfather (Major Fred). Major fred survived the war only to be killed in a level crossing accident.


I also found this photo of some NZ officers taken just before being evacuated from Galipolli.
The bloke seated at the front left is a machine gun officer, when I was a young fella I was sent stay on his farm during the holidays. I had a lot of fun at his place as he had 2 machine guns on the back veranda the green one was an Allied gun & the grey one was German gun. Of course he was an old man by then.


LEST WE FORGET
 
Only a real goose can swallow the proper gander.

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 04:55:26 PM »
 :)

I kinda knew immediately that you were going to fit in around here, very interesting stuff you posted there.

War - I dunno what it is, really, I do not, and I've been there more than most, although a mate of mine who is Special Forces and just recently got himself shot, again, in Afghanistan, laughs and calls me an amateur :) He's ok, shooting that guy just gets him annoyed :)

it's something we should by now have outgrown, it is also poignant and tragic and I don't care what people say about the  the techno progress it produces, the price is not worth it.

Nice post mate.

Cheers

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Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 06:14:39 PM »
Terrible though it is, I do believe there are times when war is necessary.

As for the men who fight....

There are a few lines in the Toby Keith song I posted above that sum it up beautifully.

And I will always do my duty no matter what the price
I’ve counted up the cost, I know the sacrifice
Oh and I don’t want to die for you, but if dyin’s asked of me
I’ll bear that cross with honor, cause freedom don’t come free.


Doc also summed it \up rather well in a post he made on the last incarnation of Knuck...

I'm quoting purely from memory here, but it was along the lines of...

A soldier doesn't fight because he hates what's in front of him. He fights because he loves what's behind him.
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 07:09:12 PM »
*Very sad smile*

Total truth, mind you whilst I have had my disagreements with Stormin' Norman I do agree with him on that most famous of quotes :)

It's been that way here in the virtual world - just leave us alone, we are nice folks, we don't fuck with you, but if you fuck with us, prepare for pain - and they damned sure got it...

Cheers

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Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2009, 04:29:33 PM »
 :)

Hmm, not split yet....

I'm not really much of a Youtuber and where I am just now I probably don't have the bandwidth anyway, so if anyone can find "Lucky Man" by Emerson Lake and Palmer please add it in.

That song can make my entire family cry - we have lost members in various places, including on the Hood and at Arnhem. Actually we go back a lot further than that, all the way to Hastings and probably beyond but those examples will do.

Here's a thought I have often had.

If you build weapons then there is a very high probability that they will be used, despite all the protestations that they are for defense.

It amazes me that hardly a single military aircraft that I have ever flown, and that is quite a list, has NOT been in combat - Even EE, or Bae if you prefer, Lightnings, hardly intended for the role, had a few scraps in the Gulf. I think only The Saabs, that I can think off the top of my head, have acted purely in defensive non-combatant roles - you get that when you are neutral.

You have to go right up the chain, to the ICBMs and nuclear subs, before you will find thus far unused major weaponry, and I do wonder how long that will last.

Even the B-2s, huge value deterrent systems, were used against Afghanistan.

The point to all of that?

Stop making weapons.

But to misquote a book called "Down to a Sunless Sea" if the last two men on earth were to run into each other one would probably pick up a stick and say "When you are ready Sir."

It's in our genes, violent damned lot.

Cheers





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Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2009, 01:09:00 AM »
No split because the split and merge functions can both be damned clunky. As I was recently reminded of when I put them to use in another thread.

What you’re talking about is the catch-22 of military preparedness and deterrence.

History has shown, time and time again, that those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plow for those who don’t.

I’m not much in the habit of quoting JFK, but he put it rather well in his inaugural address.

“We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.”

The catch-22 is that the more weapons you have and the more powerful you are, the easier and more tempting it becomes to use those weapons.

Even with the best of intentions, that can lead to pointless wars and hundreds of thousands of wasted lives.

See the Vietnam War for a case study in a militarily powerful country led by a President with the best of intentions.

Even the term Catch-22 wonderfully sums up the paradox.

As coined by Heller, you’d have to be insane to say go up in a big, slow moving bomber, knowing that there will be people both in the air and on the ground trying to kill you and if you’re insane, they can’t make you go into battle. But, the catch-22 is, if you know it’s insane, then you’re not insane and so, you have to go.
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline McClean

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2009, 01:13:52 AM »
What a lucky man he was..


« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 05:22:54 PM by McClean »
Where everything out here ain't what it seems
When I'm down to nothing, I just go ahead and dream
And face the fact that I'm a circle in a world full of squares

Offline Hardman

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2009, 07:42:21 AM »
 :)

Thanks mate ;)

Yeah, it is a catch 22, the day you don't have defense is the day the barbarians come over the walls.

I probably didn't explain myself well though, I meant cease weapons development, hold in place and stop the decadence of weaponry.

Impossible of course, whole economies depend upon weapons manufacture, not least in the US, but the way things are going military weaponry is rapidly becoming utterly decadent.

As an example, whilst it is pretty, and full of neat gadgets, the F-35 programme is an utter waste of time and money and in serious trouble.

It'll sort out, it's Lockheed after all, but is it really needed?

You know that I know the aviation industry pretty well, I'd contend that the -35 programme is an example of purest decadence that exists mainly to keep factories open and workers in jobs.

Cheers





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Offline thetap

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Re: Wars and the men who fight them...
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2010, 10:25:17 PM »
And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda, performed by Redgum.

'Pile on many more layers / And I'll be joining you there'